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Автор Тема:   А может переведём убер-фак из глок-тока?    (просмотров: 2208)
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nEJIbMEHb
posted 23-12-2007 06:38    
Trigger Technique 101

This is a discussion thread that occurred on GlockTalk.com. It started as a simple question posed by Neo Alred but turned into a 20-page book covering every single aspect of Glock trigger control. Some of the details discussed are: trigger reset, flinching, anticipation & surprise, dry-firing technique, follow through, looking for holes, milking the grip and many more. I strongly suggest that you read the entire thing, you won't be sorry. However, if you need a quick fix, use the links in the table of contents (look left) to get help for a specific problem. The red words in the text are points where specific techniques and solutions are described.
Many thanks to the authors of this great discussion: Neo Alred, volcanopaul, Tactical Response, DeanG, Mike Havas, harrydog, toro, robear, gunmart, tackdrivr, ArmoredTrk in AZ, Gabe Suarez, DISPENSER 4 HIRE, Goodgun, hkP7, ajm, Sneevil, m65swede, Oosik, Highspeed, Dwalk, Muad'Dib, dakodakid, Rainmaker19, CarlosDJackal, Mike40, Partywaggin, jlyons and tag.
Topic: Breaking a habit
Neo Alred -- 04-28-2000 20:16
**************SPECIAL NOTICE*****************
I have been completely amazed by this excellent thread. I am continually reading other's postings in all discussion boards, that refer to the excellent knowledge that they have learned by reading this thread, complete with direct links so that others might find help here, too. In this thread, I hope that you will find useful information, discussed on a very basic level, that will improve your shooting as it has improved mine. Special thanks to all of the people who have contributed all of the fine advice that you are about to read. I only asked a good question. These people are responsible for making this thread the useful discussion it has become. Keep the thread alive by adding your own experiences to the end of the thread. Enjoy, and good shooting! -Neo Alred
*********************************************
Now, on to the question that started it all!
Hello everyone,
As I've been working out at the range, I have noticed a consistency to my shot placement that I'd like to work out of my routine. My first shot is usually dead on the money. My subsequent shots usually fall a little low and left. I showed the rangemaster my targets and he suggested that I am "milking" the grip while squeezing the trigger. This action forces the barrel to dip and twist slightly to the left. Of course, this causes the shot to err a little. When shooting police training silhouettes, my shots are almost never outside the 9 ring and I've yet to place one outside the 8 ring, no matter how sloppy or fast I'm shooting through the clip. I'd just like to be able to get this practice out of my routine so that I hit the 10 ring more regularly.
Any advice?
And thanks in advance for your suggestions!

volcanopaul -- 04-30-2000 18:34
Regular dry-firing practice. Lots of it. Really concentrate on holding the sights steady as the trigger breaks. "Follow through" by holding the sights on target for several seconds after the trigger breaks. This in and of itself has helped my shooting tremendously.
Paul
Tactical Response -- 04-30-2000 21:35
It sounds as if you might be looking for your bullet holes. If you are going to fire one shot you should get two sight pictures, three shots get four sight pictures and so forth. Follow through is the key. Fire a string without looking at your group until finished.
You might be squeezing the gun too hard. When you get finished shooting a string look at your hand. Can you see an impression of the grip? If so you might be "milking" as was suggested.
Neo Alred -- 05-01-2000 01:11
Chief,
You are right about the imprint of the grip on my hand. I have noticed that each time I'm done with my shooting session. It appears on my right (strong) hand. I have tried to loosen this grip a little bit, but I feel like I am limp-wristing the gun if I loosen it. I know that this analogy might not seem to apply, but in golf, I hold my right hand loosely on the grip and strong-hand my left hand. Should I be weakening my right hand, while strong-handing the left support hand?
Thanks for offering some suggestions. I appreciate them and look forward to any other suggestions you might have for me.

Neo Alred -- 05-01-2000 01:13
And VolcanoPaul,
Thanks for your suggestion. I will try the dry-fire drills and concentrate on keeping the sights on target after applying the trigger. And again with the golf analogy...it sounds like both of you are telling me to "keep my head down" or "don't watch the ball" but concentrate on making the shot and on following through. The advice seems to make sense.
Gracias!
volcanopaul -- 05-01-2000 11:10
That's a good analogy. Lemme see if I can explain this...The total "squeeze" from both of my hands is 100%. My support hand (left hand) is about 60% of that and my right hand is about 40% of that. So yes, my support hand is holding on to the gun slightly more firmly than my right hand.
Paul

Neo Alred -- 05-01-2000 14:01
Thanks Paul,
I'm going to find some time this week to get back to the range to try the suggestions that you and the Chief have given. In the meantime, I'll pull out the Glock and see if I can't get used to the feel of the relaxed grip and do some dry-firings to concentrate on the proper squeeze.
Thanks so much for the help.

DeanG -- 05-01-2000 17:33
Neo,
There have been some good suggestions offered here. I would be willing to bet you are not properly resetting the trigger, and maybe even taking your finger off the trigger between shots, thus "mashing" the second shot. Try firing your first shot, stay focused on the front sight during the follow through or recoil cycle, MAKE SURE YOU HOLD THE TRIGGER COMPLETTLY TO THE REAR while this process this happening. After the pistol settles back down so that you have a perfect sight picture and sight alignment, slowly start to release the trigger ONLY enough until it clicks/resets. Then slowly start to press the trigger to the rear again keeping your perfect sight alignment and sight picture. Your two shots, if both are true surprises, should almost be on top of each other. The second shot deserves the same respect and time to "surprise" you as the first, to guarantee your hits.
DeanG

Neo Alred -- 05-01-2000 17:53
Dean,
Although the first part of your post isn't happening (mashing the second shot), the second part seems like great advice.
If I can run down what I've been doing, I think it would go something like this: I align the sights and squeeze the trigger to the point that all safeties are released. Then I hold at that point and try to just squeeze past the break so that the shot is fired. Then, I release the trigger, usually only to the point of trigger reset, unless I have completed my planned volley and want to take a break to assess the situation. I can see that I am probably not holding the trigger in the rear position until things settle down, as you suggest. This is one more thing for me to try at the range this week.
This is great. If you all keep this up, it won't be long before I can only count one slightly enlarged hole on top of the center "X"! I can't wait.

Mike Havas -- 05-01-2000 20:07
To all,
Treat DeanG like E.F. Hutton. When he talks, Listen. Dean is a "Trigger Scientist". It is always a learning experience, when I have the pleasure of training with, or under Dean.
Try to imagine a smooth trigger press, (hit) reset, second press (HIT !) on steel, at 25 then 50 meters sometimes even a 100.
We can all agree, this is well out of the realm of the average gun owner. This would take a good deal of trigger control to repeatedly make the hits. Dean teaches a level of trigger control to accomplish this feat while the shooter has his, or her EYES CLOSED! Most people will find this hard to believe, but it is true. I know he has done this with several hundred shooters, and some are GT readers. Feel free to chime in.
It is not magic, it is trigger control.

Neo Alred -- 05-02-2000 01:38
Thanks Mike,
I appreciate your second of Dean's suggestions. I'm honored that all of you have taken some time out of your busy lives to help me get more lead through the center of the target! I've got some time scheduled for the range on Wednesday morning, at which time I hope to be able to put all of this together. I'll be back for clarifications and refinement after that session, I am sure.

DeanG -- 05-02-2000 11:53
Neo,
From your testimony you are "feeling" for the break. You are adding pressure then adding a bit more and so on, trying to anticipate going only to the exact point at which the shot will break. This then cannot be a true surprise break. In a true surprise break you will be applying smooth, consistent pressure rearward and at some unknown point during this process, the shot will break surprising you. This difference sounds subtle but makes a huge difference in your shooting.
A mash while caused by many things, feeling for the break, not taking the slack out of the trigger before truly starting your true trigger press, squeezing the trigger/pistol thus using all of our firing hand fingers in a squeezing motion, slapping the trigger especially on the second shot, using 12 lbs of pressure on a 5.5 lb trigger, or the most common reason, having perfect sight alignment and sight picture and wanting to make it happen NOW, will always manifest itself for the right hand shooter with a low, left shot. For the left-handed shooter it will go low right. The proof is in the target.
Good luck in your practice tomorrow.

Neo Alred -- 05-02-2000 13:01
Dean,
After reading your last post I think that I have figured something else out about my routine. I think that I am anticipating the recoil and consequently, gripping the gun tighter just slightly before the trigger breaks. This would translate into milking the grip and causing the shot to go low and left. I need to stop anticipating AND get used to not knowing exactly when the gun is going to fire AND hold the trigger at the back of the pull until things settle AND continue to hold a clear sight picture AND... this is the point in golf where you ask your buddy, "By the way, do you inhale or exhale in your backswing?" It certainly turns into a lot of stuff to think about while shooting!
Would you recommend practicing the individual skills separately, and then add them together, or should I try to achieve all of them at once?
GT sure is a neat forum. On mornings when I go to the range, I'm usually the only guy there and I don't get to ask questions like this. Having this resource is great. Thanks.

Tactical Response -- 05-02-2000 13:51
This might sound silly but I feel most people are thinking "trigger, trigger, trigger" as they press it to the rear. Try thinking "front sight, front sight, front sight" and forget about the trigger. If it surprises you then it was a perfect shot.
As you begin to practice the trigger reset you will have several "bangs" when you "weren't ready". They will all be in the bullseye.

DeanG -- 05-02-2000 14:21
Neo,
You are indeed inducing a "pre-ignition" push or mash by feeling for and anticipating the shot breaking. Listen to Chuck, focus on the front sight, and let yourself be surprised. What you really need is less range time and more time doing perfect, SLOW, DRY practice. The perfect DRY practice will train your brain to learn that nothing bad is going to happen when you press the trigger. Perform each step slowly and perfectly. Speed is a function of smoothness and consistency, which comes with time. You can't MISS fast enough to win a gunfight

Mike Havas -- 05-02-2000 19:47
Neo,
Dean and the Chief have both given you great advice. It will be slightly, mentally awkward, to really feel a new style of trigger manipulation, while maintaining sight alignment. Your willingness to learn will carry you through. The benefits of perfect dry practice cannot be overstated.
Soon you will operate your trigger the same perfect way repeatedly, without giving it a second thought. Then, as the Chief said, front sight, front sight, and those surprise breaks will be "on the money". As you read your target, and catch old habits sneaking back, STOP! Take one step back to basics, (dry practice), get it perfect, and then take your next two forward.
I need to go and do my dry practice. Good Shooting, Neo. I'm looking forward to a recap of your range success.

Tactical Response -- 05-02-2000 23:57
Neo,
A good, but unexpected, bi-product of trigger reset is very fast split times (the time between shots) as you master it. My current split times are .15 -.17 and I am beginning to dip lower and have had days where they were .05 -.06

Neo Alred -- 05-03-2000 01:28
Thanks everyone,
I again want to thank you for your support and for your suggestions. I'm looking forward to my range session tomorrow (Wednesday). I've been doing dry-fire drills at home and I feel like I've been holding everything very steady. I'll do some more at the range before loading up the first magazines and really try to work in the methods listed in our discussions. I'll let you know how I score.

harrydog -- 05-03-2000 07:29
This is some great information which I know will help me but I have another very basic question. Probably so basic it will seem stupid, but.......when concentrating on the front sight, do you use your dominant eye only or both eyes? Thanks.

Neo Alred -- 05-03-2000 14:41
HarryDog,
There are two good discussions going in Tactics and Training that deal with your question about dominant eyes. The first is called, "Beating a left-eye dominant horse." The second is called, "Eyes wide open." As I'm the one that asked for help in this thread, I'm certainly not the expert, but summarizing what I've learned in the other two threads, you should use the method that works best for your eyes. If that means using only the dominant eye, then keep the other closed. If it works for you to use both eyes, as it seems to work for me, then you should use that method. Whichever you use, you should practice that way exclusively and get used to doing it that way every time.
Be sure to check out the other threads, as well.

Neo Alred -- 05-03-2000 15:22
Results of Wednesday morning shoot:
I tried to make the rubber hit the road this morning and put the suggestions that I've received here to work. First, I did about 50 dry-fires while aiming at the same target I'd be using during the actual shoot. I seemed to have the feel of the pull, though this of course did not give me the feel of the trigger resetting. The sights did not move at all during the dry-fire drills. I feel pretty good that I was pulling smoothly, since the barrel stayed in place very well. I also concentrated on holding the trigger against the rear guard for a count of one before I'd release the squeeze. This, so I'd get used to Dean's suggestion. Then it was time to load up. I just have the two 10-round mags that came with my Glock, so I loaded them both. I decided to shoot volleys of 5, then pull the target in for assessment and try to make changes in the next group of 5. The first 20 shots had very little consistency. For these drills, I'm using the Alco targets for right-handed shooters that give diagnostics as to why your shot landed where it did. In the first group of 5, I hit center twice, though the shots were spread. The rest landed left, without dipping below the target line of where I was aiming. The diagnostic reads: "Too much or too little trigger finger."
In the next 5-shot grouping, I noticed that I wasn't releasing the trigger to just the point of reset. Dean, I have never actually noticed the "click" until today. Thank you. Once I noticed that, I concentrated on getting just to the reset click. Chief, I also concentrated on "front sight, front sight, front sight," and on getting a clear sight picture after the shot was fired, trying to hold my line while pressing the trigger against the rear stop. I noticed that my shooting was smoothing out quite a bit, so my groupings in the next few mags were much tighter, though some were still erring to the low-left again. Not as far south as they were last week.
After shooting about 4 mags, I switched to a clean diagnostic target and started again. This one has a lot more holes in the center 10 zone, including a few enlarged holes where multiple shots passed through the same hole.
For the last few mags I switched to a police training silhouette target with the internal organs marked on the target. I like to practice shot placement by shooting two in the chest and one in the head. Warning to all intruders: I've become really good at this! A Mesa cop was at the range this morning and as he walked out of the range he commented, "Nice shooting." Warmed my heart. After I was out of the 100 shells I'd purchased at the range, I decided that since I'd never actually fired any of my carry ammo, it would probably be useful to get a feel of how it performed, so I loaded up two mags (everything I had). Shooting the first mag (Federal Hydroshock) I noticed that the recoil didn't seem as bad. My shot grouping was pretty tight. I was aiming at the left shoulder so I could separate out the shots from the center of mass rounds that I'd fired with the target ammo. The group was fairly tight and the reduced recoil brought the gun back to target more quickly. In the second mag of the Hydroshocks, I aimed for the bridge of the nose and fired all 10 rounds. This was the most impressive shooting of the day. 7 out of 10 are touching in a small line on the bridge of the nose. Of the other 3, one hit the center of the left eye. One was just below the right eye, and one is dead center in a patch marked, "Medulla Oblongata". That is actually 1.5 inches below the target, but in a fight, I'd be quite satisfied with that result.
So, although I would have liked to have bought another 100 rounds and practiced some more, I think that things are looking better. I've decided that I can spend about 40 bucks a week on practice range time and ammo. I saw some clear improvements in my shooting. I re-read all of your comments about 25 times before going to the range--enough that I could almost hear your voices in my head as I pressed the trigger.
Now I need to drill the methods over and over.
Thanks so much for all of the suggestions. I feel better already, but I'm excited to learn anything else you have to offer. It looks like others are beginning to gain useful info from our discussion, so I'd like to continue it for as long as we can. I know that I have more to learn, and others do too.
Again, thank you.

Mike Havas -- 05-03-2000 20:17
It is good to hear of your accomplishment, Neo. Actually "feeling " the reset is a big step ahead. You will get the best results when you shoot controlled pair to COM, opposed to "vollies". You saw the proof of that on your last target. If two good legitimate COM hits (any caliber) aren't getting the job done, there is no reason to think #'s 3-10 will help. If two doesn't work "Failure to stop" (head) is your only hope. In our new and safer world of low-cap
mags / multiple targets , Ammo conservation is on my mind. Being on an ammo budget is in your favor. Dry practice will yield you the greatest, and longest lasting benefits...and it is FREE! Rarely should you need more than a box to verify your DRY practice. Good Job Neo! Your progress will amaze you, on your next few trips to the range!

Tactical Response -- 05-05-2000 00:05
Neo,
Another problem to avoid is looking for your bullet holes as you are recoiling. If you "string" your bullets in a line that is most likely what you are doing. You are watching your bullet holes and shooting at them. Continue aiming at ONE spec on the target. Even if you shoot it out keep shooting where it was. If you get trigger reset, trigger press, and sight alignment, sight picture correct it will be no problem to do 10 shot groups at ten feet into a quarter sized hole.
P-P-P-r-r-r-e-e-e-s-s-s

toro -- 05-05-2000 12:06
Wow! I just stumbled onto this thread and boy, am I glad I did! I'm the sort of "scientific" shooter (for that matter, scientific everything that drives everyone crazy with questions). I've been trying to get a better understanding of trigger pull, breath control and other issues that impact or affect shot placement and this thread has answered close to 95% of my questions! Thank you ever so much.

Neo Alred -- 05-05-2000 12:47
Thanks Chief,
I thought I was concentrating on the front site, but I guess I could still be looking at the bullet holes. The target seemed blurry to me while focusing in the site picture. I tried to keep my aim on center and bring the gun back to that point during the recoil. The string of holes that I described actually only spreads slightly more than an inch from one end of the string to the other. I had to push the paper around the target together to be able to count rounds as there wasn't much left on the bridge of the nose.
The greatest thing that I got from my practice was the confirmation that all of the suggestions made here are very sound tactics and they helped me a great deal. Getting back to a golf analogy, I feel as if I was shooting 140 before asking my question, and after some great coaching, I've shaved 40 points off my game in one practice round. The next 20 points probably won't come off as quickly, but with practice, I'll see a few strokes come off here and there until I can consistently shoot par of 82. I hope that made sense.
I'm learning a lot and having fun at the same time. Thanks to everyone, and welcome to any and all new readers who are interested in learning the great info presented in our little thread. I'm always pleased to see it near the top when I drop into check on the latest contributions.

robear -- 05-07-2000 14:05
I was at the range yesterday. Even though I hadn't read this thread in about 2-3 days. A great deal about it was still playing in my mind... After re-reading the ENTIRE thread again just now I realized that there were some things I forgot to do yesterday, and that some of the things I did remember to concentrate on really made a difference.
For some reason, I completely forgot to hold the trigger all the way back between shots, and then just move it forward to the "click" (I realized this while driving home. I actually smacked myself on the head! ) I did realize while shooting that I am anticipating the trigger break and recoil. I was even able to catch the entire gun SHAKING at the moment I expected it to fire! Sometimes it would fire (for a lousy shot) and other times I would catch myself, release the trigger and try again, concentrating more on my technique. These shots were much better. One question. When I dry-fire, I KNOW the gun isn't going to fire, so all I am anticipating is the "click" and am able to eliminate my anticipatory "shake" When shooting live ammo, I KNOW it is going to fire, and the "shake" seems to return. It feels like this is the crux of my problem. Do I just need more dry firing? (I'll be the first to admit that I probably don't do enough.)
I also found it difficult not to look for my bullet holes after each shot. I didn't even know I had that habit until I tried to break it. I kept the mantra "front sight, front sight, front sight" in my head.
There was a great deal to try and combine at once, but the results spoke for themselves. Even after only the 100rds I brought with me. The last target I took down was considerably better than the first!! My shooting is definitely improving. Thanks a million to everyone here who took the time to help us with your GREAT advice and wisdom. I'll let you know how my next session goes! Stay Safe!!

Neo Alred -- 05-07-2000 16:31
robear,
I knew that someone else would get some great advice from this thread. So glad that you saw some improvements, too.
It sounds to me like you are nervous about the gun discharging. I noticed this in my own practice before I purchased my 22 and while I was renting guns from the range. It took getting back to the basics of proper gun handling for me to stop worrying about the trigger so much. I got used to being in control of when the gun was going to fire, and knew that I was making it happen WHEN I wanted it to happen. I also tightened my grip some, but later learned that I should relax it a bit. Anyway, once I got more comfortable with the explosion, I stopped shaking and anticipating the recoil so much. As Dean suggested above, nothing bad is going to happen when the gun fires, so stop sweating the recoil so much. The key seems to be "controlled surprise"--being in control of the trigger, but pressing it so smoothly that you are surprised when it the bullet actually lets loose. This is where the dry practice really helped me, and continues to help me. Since you concentrate on pressing smoothly, without any recoil, you get used to doing the same when firing live rounds. You still don't really know where the trigger break is, so you are still surprised. Then hold the trigger against the stop during the recoil, and then release until you feel the click. I didn't feel the click until Dean and the Chief pointed it out for me. Once it was there, I couldn't miss it and started returning the trigger just to the reset click.
Keep it up. This has been helping me a lot, and it sounds like it is starting to help you a lot, too.

robear -- 05-07-2000 17:38
Neo--
I know the shaking is just a psychological phenomenon... To be honest, I hadn't even fired a gun in about 5 years before I bought my G22. (well, except for the few rentals.. once I fired the Glock, I knew that's what I wanted) So I know that I will need to work my way up to being comfortable firing a pistol again... (I wasn't that great of a shot before my "hiatus" anyway) Thanks for the encouragement. I can already see progress after just learning a few proper techniques, so I'm sure the rest will come with repetition and practice, dry and live... Stay Safe!!!

Mike Havas -- 05-07-2000 19:18
To the readers,
It pleases me to read all the positive range feedback. As you can gather from this thread, a lot of individual processes have to come together to repeatedly make your hits. Sad, but true, most gun owner don't even realize how easy it is to miss, even up close. All we have to do is look a few of the actual videotapes to substantiate that.
Recoil anticipation can be a recurring problem that sneaks up on all of us. You can't shoot yourself out of a "flinch". Again dry practice is the cure. As you dry practice fix, or improve your other processes. While you're working on the surprise break, you also need to do everything else perfect, Follow through / reset, front sight. Practice a lighter grip, so you don't try to crush the magazine, in anticipation of the second shot. A portion of this squeezing translates to your trigger finger as sympathy movement, NOT GOOD.
Check your bullet holes in your "after action" target assessment. They will be there. You will not see holes in a real target so train your self out of looking for them. As far as breath control. That really is a non-issue in the defensive shooting arena (conversational distances). You will naturally pause for the 1-4 seconds it takes for the winners and losers to be decided. That is just one less thing to clutter our minds with. Now that I harped on Dry practice, I have to go do some.

Tactical Response -- 05-07-2000 19:49
Beating flinching......
Dry fire will help to a great degree. But, as mentioned earlier, you KNOW when the gun is loaded. There is a drill you can try. It is called the "Ball and Dummy Drill". You should purchase (or make if you have a reloader) some inert rounds. "Safe-T" and "Snap-Cap" brands work well.
Don't look down as you load the mag and gun or have a shooting buddy do it. Now you have put "X" amount of dry fires in your mag at unknown locations.
The key to making this help you is to watch that front sight. After you "click" make a mental note of what the front sight did and which way it moved if at all.
So you don't inadvertently train yourself to just stop when your gun goes "click" instantly do a "Tap - Rack - Bang/Assess". Now you have done a few extra pieces of training with little or no extra trouble and the training rounds will be useful in many other areas.
And remember if you are shaking instead of flinching you are probably gripping the gun far too tight. Imagine how you might hold a bird in your hand to keep it from flying away. You hold it snugly but not with great force. THAT is how the gun should be held. The odds are if you are flinching because of being nervous of the recoil you are also gripping the gun too hard.
Press on....

robear -- 05-07-2000 20:05
Chief---
Sounds like great advice. I will pick up some snap-caps tomorrow... A quick question. I have heard the Tap-Rap-Bang mentioned many times here and on other forums (TFL) but am not well versed on the mechanics of it. Could you (or anyone else) go over it in detail??
Your "too tight" grip theory is probably spot on... I just went through a few minutes of dry-fire, and tried to put myself into the mindset of actually being on the range... My grip would kill any bird!!! (LOL) I will work on that aspect also... Thanks again for all of your help...

gunmart -- 05-07-2000 23:07
To avoid looking for the hits or the bullet holes. Place an old t-shirt over your target. It will be impossible to see the holes. When you complete your firing string then you go and ck your hits.
On milking the grip:
Practice some one handed 3-finger shooting. That is, shoot the gun strong-handed. Use only your thumb index finger and your traffic finger to hold the gun, (these are your strongest fingers, just try and shake somebody's hand.) Next incorporate the next two fingers on your next firing string. You will see your shots going low and to the left. This will prove if you're milking the grip.

Tactical Response -- 05-08-2000 01:00
Type one malfunction (Tap-Rack-Bang) is when you pull the trigger and get a "click" instead of the desired "bang". It could be caused by an empty chamber, misfire, hangfire, broken firing pin, and (I am sure I forgot something). The first thing you should do is MOVE. Don't stand still when your gun does. Fix the gun while running, to cover preferably, but running regardless. TAP the magazine firmly. RACK the slide sharply to the rear and release. Now BANG or ASSESS the situation.
Type two malfunction is a "Stovepipe". It is recognized by the piece of brass obstructing your view of the front sight or sticking out the side of the ejection port. Some people say to "wipe" the piece of brass away with your weak hand. That works sometimes but you can cut your hand, accidentally engage the safety, or cover your hand with the muzzle. Use the TAP-RACK-BANG method described above.
Type three is a "Double Feed". Time to go to back-up gun. This one takes a minute! It occurs when there is a piece of brass already in the chamber and is not extracted or a faulty magazine tries to put two rounds in at the same time. Lock the slide back. Pull the magazine out of the gun (you'll have to pull harder than normal). Cycle the gun 4-5 times to extract the piece of brass. Insert a new mag and rack the slide.
Type four happens when the slide doesn't go all the way forward. Slap the action forward or TAP-RACK-BANG.
Remember to MOVE when your gun malfunctions.
Gabe Suarez is having a special on his four books. I suggest you buy the set. It will be money well spent I assure you. I have a large library of tactical books but Gabe's stay on the top of the pile.

Neo Alred -- 05-08-2000 01:27
Wow.
If I'd known what this thread was going to turn into, I'd have titled it something like, "Proper Shooting 101" or something equally descriptive. Some may find the skills we've discussed basic, but I am still learning more with every post that gets added to the list. I'm really glad to see that the weekend readers have arrived to bring more into the discussion. Sunday must be a good day for reading GT!
Chief, thanks for explaining Tap, Rack, Bang (Assess). I need to practice that action, too.
Robear, I was away from shooting for 12 years before buying my 22. I think that anticipating the recoil is perfectly normal for those of us who remember firing guns, but have lost the skills it takes to pick up where we left off. It is starting to come back to me, though I am firing a much better gun today!

Neo Alred -- 05-08-2000 01:35
Mike,
I have been wondering about this and I'm sure that an explanation will help everyone else, as well. When doing dry fire practice, how do I practice the reset? My trigger, I assume properly, does not reset unless I cycle the slide after the trigger locks back. I just can't get it to reset unless I release my grip and pull the slide back. This, of course, breaks all concentration on proper technique!
So, do I just mime the action of moving my index finger forward to the reset, or is there something that I'm missing?

gunmart -- 05-08-2000 09:47
Double feeds with a Glock:
There is a neat trick for Glock shooters when a double feed is induced that will speed your recovery time up a lot. Just pull the magazine down about 2 inches. The slide WILL shut every time on a live round. Tap the magazine home then fire. It works every time.
This will not work on any other style gun so if you run multiple gun systems you need to stick to the other way so you don't get confused when your shi3## is in the crapper.

tackdrivr -- 05-08-2000 16:59
Neo,
To dry practice the trigger reset on a Glock pistol try this:
After the trigger is pressed, maintain your grip with the firing side hand and hold the trigger to the rear. With the support side hand, cycle the slide (rack) and then reestablish the firing grip. At this point you can reset and press again.
Its also good to practice racking the slide with the support side hand while at the point position as this transitions well to clearing malfunctions.

Mike Havas -- 05-08-2000 21:14
Neo,
Fred is right on, with his suggestion about support side hand doing a slide rack. That will help you in malfunction clearances later. That is a handy way to feel the reset.
I advise doing this a reasonable amount of time to feel the reset but, not every time.
You certainly don't want to ingrain this to the point of racking after a real shot. Sound silly? We are creatures of habit, (good or bad) and old habits tend to show themselves when we are tired or under stress. With that being said, I am compelled to bring up this point. (With no disrespect to the Chief) Malfunction clearance is definitely an important part of firearm proficiency. Many people still teach the, time honored," tap rack bang" clearance.
As the Chief stated, "bang, or assess".
I submit, Tap rack assess (still pointed in) bang as required. A trained person can clear the first two malfunctions in 1-1.5 seconds, and the double feed considerably longer. Even in a second, a real scenario could change drastically. BG drops the weapon, throws hands up, turns and runs. A justifiable shooting could quickly be twisted into what looks like an execution. Worse yet, an innocent bystander may pass into your line of fire, during the confusion. Sure as s__t, the whole event would be caught on tape, by a video camera (ATM, Parking lot, store etc.). If you train to reflexively shoot after a clearance, you may not be able to stop yourself for real. Weapons manipulations should be reflexive, but shooting must be based on an intellectual decisions to shoot. This thread is starting to get into areas that no one can really do justice to outside of "classroom environment" where you get the whole pie, not just pieces. I can't recommend training in one of the fine schools enough. We all have out favorites, me too! In fairness to every one, I can respond to that via personal e-mail.
I have gotten a pretty good feel for reset on my own pistol, so... in dry practice, I press the "shot" hold the trigger to the rear a little longer than it would take to cycle, release pressure, and press again.
True, I don't get a true reset, but it is an effective muscle training exercise.
It is great to see the interest in learning.
Like Gabe has stated, nobody knows all there is to know. Good Shooting, Mike

gunmart -- 05-09-2000 09:46
Sorry mike I just don't agree with the tap rack and assess. It doesn't make sense.
If you're in a deadly situation and you ARE shooting for defense. Taking a moment to assess the situation, lowering your gun could cost you seconds. (see how many rounds you can get off in 2 seconds from the ready.) I know it is politically correct to lower your gun and access the situation but for Pete's sake the reason your firing in the first place is because you were in fear of your life. If you're justified in firing in the first place your justified in continuing to fire until the threat stops. The gun stops, you perform the best tap, rack and guess what the bad guys still in front of you, you go BANG.
WHAT IS THERE TO ACCESS?
If he was a threat before you started firing and you have a malfunction, (now your really in fear of your life) you clear it and he is still standing in front of you he is still a threat.
I think a lot of the assess on the malfunction drill comes from the shoot two, assess and one to the head comes from the old days of training. A fight is a fight and everyone should fight to win.
Some will think I am endorsing spray and pray technique. I AM NOT!!!!!
I simply think that you should continue to deploy SIGHTED FIRE until the threat stops.
END OF STORY!!!!!!

tackdrivr -- 05-09-2000 11:07
For the sake of debate, let's say the knuckle head is wearing a vest or is pumped up on drugs. You fire a controlled pair to the center of mass (Plan A) and the fights still on. Do you want to repeat Plan A which failed to stop the problem the first time or switch to (Plan B) transition to the head to solve the problem.
Granted an additional controlled pair may solve the problem. Are you willing to bet your life on it?
He only has to live long enough to kill you.

Neo Alred -- 05-09-2000 18:33
Hello again,
We seem to have slipped off topic into a debate over tap, rack, bang. I'd like to keep the discussion centered on controlled shot placement if we can. Tap, Rack, Bang is a great topic and probably deserves its own discussion heading. Thanks.
As for getting back to the range to do more practice, I just sank my ammo budget for the next few weeks into a M3 Tactical Illuminator, so I'll be doing a lot more dry-fire practice!

Mike Havas -- 05-09-2000 19:55
Gunmart,
I'm afraid you missed the point I was trying to raise. Fair enough. Let me put it another way, should there be any confusion on my reasoning. We carry our pistols ready to go, with a loaded magazine and, one in the chamber (verified with a chamber check).
At this point we have the greatest probability of the first round going "bang". You do every thing right and, it is a perfect COM hit. Now as you attempt to send the second shot in your controlled pair, "click" or nothing at all. You get busy clear you malfunction in a second and a half. You may not even have a target left. The assess is only long enough to see if you still have a threat (.5 seconds), or that no one has gotten in your line of fire. I am a great proponent of shooting the threat, out of the threat.
Are we on the same page now? Thank you for bring up the question if I wasn't clear.
I admire your fight-winning attitude!

gunmart -- 05-10-2000 09:37
mike, you may have missed my point.
I always go on the assumption of, what I did didn't work and it's time for plan b. If I get the loudest sound in the world. (a click when I expected a bang.) I will tap rack and if the threat is STILL THERE I will continue shooting. Yes, I agree if the threat is no longer there then I will assess the situation. But as long as he is still in the fight then so will I.

tackdrivr -- 05-10-2000 11:13
On the subject of malfunctions I have trained to diagnose the type of malfunction by recognizing the symptom as the trigger is pressed.
Type 1, Click. When the trigger is pressed, you get normal feeling trigger but the pistol goes click instead of bang. Immediately tap rack flip. The flip consists of rotating the pistol 90 degrees, ejection port down, in a sharp flipping motion. This is performed to help get the brass of defective round out of the ejection port and or chamber.
Never assume that a type 1 is always caused by an empty chamber. It could also be caused by a light hit or defective ammo.
Type 2, Failure to eject. This time when the trigger is pressed, nothing happens or the trigger feels mushy. Quickly LOOK at the ejection port. If you see brass HIGH in the ejection port (stove pipe) Tap, rack, flip.
Type 3, Feedway stoppage, Failure to extract, Again as with a type 2 when the trigger is pressed nothing happens. The symptoms are the same as with a type 2 but, when you LOOK you see brass LOW in the ejection port (double feed).Lock the pistol open, strip the mag, Rack the slide 2-4 times, insert a filled mag and rack the slide again, chambering a round.
All double feeds are type 3's but not all type 3's are double feeds. It can also be caused buy a fired case still in the chamber. That's why racking the slide is important after the mag is stripped.
Also by looking at or into the ejection port you may see the follower in which case the pistol is empty and you would perform an emergency reload.
In low light all malfunctions should be treated as type 3's.
All malfunction drills should end with the weapon pointed in and the trigger set ready to fight.
I hope this helps.

DeanG -- 05-10-2000 13:33
Neo,
Congratulations on your purchase of the M3 Tac Light, good choice. I would suggest a couple of things if I may be so bold. One, the M3 has a great swivel switch with three positions, off, solid on, and intermittent on. DRY Practice using your support side index finger to work the switch while maintaining your firing grip. This leaves your trigger finger free to access the trigger if needed even while using the intermittent mode.
Second, DRY practice clearing your house in the dark from your bedroom out, and from the bad guys perspective, which is from all possible entry points in. Note the effect of reflections from mirrors, chrome or glass. Pay careful attention to places you can't readily see or shine the light, like behind chairs or the couch. Maybe relocating some furniture afterwards could be in order.
Also practice using the Harries technique with your M3 in case you don't have time to slip it on your Glock or your not using a Glock. The M3 works well here too.
One final point, if your DON'T have to go out hunting, DON'T. If you do not have kids down the hall, STAY PUT, CALL 911, and get behind cover. Make the bad guy come through your door to you. No piece of furniture, keepsake or TV is worth getting killed over, buy insurance instead, and I don't mean from GLOCK.
Good luck,

ArmoredTrk in Az -- 05-13-2000 23:58
Should I be using snap caps during dry fire practice? I was told not using them could damage the firing pin.

robear -- 05-14-2000 11:42
Don't worry about it... Glocks can be dry-fired until doomsday without hurting a thing... I do it daily...

volcanopaul -- 05-14-2000 13:35
gunmart, How do you know if the threat is still there if you don't assess? I'm pretty sure this is what Mike is talking about. You can't just "tap", "rack", and "bang" at the last known location of the threat. You have to "tap", "rack", and "assess" the location of the bad guy and determine if he's still a threat.

Gabe Suarez -- 05-14-2000 16:48
Hello Gents,
On the Failure to Stop issue, please see this months SWAT magazine. There is an article there titled Failure to Stop- The Solutions. I have drastically changed my group's FTS procedures after some extensive research into human reaction time.
The old Shoot-Two-And-Assess methods just didn't work on a real guy when you had a FTS. We tried to simulate this with simmunitions (ouch!). Invariably, the shooter (good guy experiencing a FTS) lowered his muzzle to assess the results only to be met with the weapon of the not-going-down bad guy in his face.
I am now teaching and training a 2+1 Drill. It involves the two to the chest and an immediate staging for a head shot. If you see a face up there when you stage for the shot, press. If you don't then go into the after-action procedure. Instead of shoot-two, it's shoot 'em to the ground. This is perfectly defensible, as you fired the shot to the brain because the bad guy was STILL standing there. To the issue that you will always fire the third shot, I say you will not because it's an IF-THEN process. Cut the head off a target and see how many head shots you fire, not any cause there's no target. This procedure removes the issues of human reaction time, and is the best FTS solution I know.

DISPENSER 4 HIRE -- 05-15-2000 01:07
Great thread!! I noticed I had developed a flinch. I then went to my revolvers and loaded 5 rounds and spun the cylinder. I was shooting either .357 or 44 mag which is much stouter than the 9 mm I shoot in my Glock. After jumping out of my skin several times when I "shot" the empty chamber I started overcoming my flinching. Also knowing the recoil was much worse in the revolvers seemed to help when I went back to the G26 and G17. Do you guys feel I am doing the best thing to overcome my flinching? My shooting seems to have improved quite a bit over the last 3 trips to the range. Once again great thread!

tackdrivr -- 05-15-2000 13:53
Try this,
First, Put the magnums away for a while and concentrate on the Glock 17 or the 357 loaded with 38 spl. ammo. IMHO the easiest to shoot of the pistols you mentioned.
The more blast, flash and recoil that is generated the more likely you are to flinch and mash the trigger. Concentrate on just one pistol. Dean has addressed this issue earlier in the thread and so has Mike. I know both of these fine men and I have learned to listen to those who know. These guys know!
Trigger control or lack of it is IMHO the single biggest problem facing most shooters in regard to technique. The Glock trigger is not the greatest to be sure and I would avoid installing a 3# connector. It can still be mastered.
The first step is to take the slack (take up) out of the trigger. Press the trigger straight back with the center of the first pad of the trigger finger until you feel resistance. There is no take up on the revolver.
This is where the press starts. Gradually start increasing the pressure an ounce at a time in a smooth and continuous motion until the shot breaks.
Do not apply a little pressure and stop, then apply a little more pressure and stop. Again a smooth and continuous motion. Keep the thumbs relaxed. Try this: Make a fist with the trigger finger straight. Now mash down hard with the thumb. For most shooters the trigger finger will start to curl inward.
Do not preload the trigger finger by mashing down the thumbs.
Once the shot breaks hold the trigger to the rear as the pistol cycles. Then slowly allow the trigger to move forward only to the point to where the trigger resets.
You will hear a click.
Dry practice is the key to mastering trigger control. You should dry practice 50-100 times per every round of ammo fired.
Firing drills will verify that your dry practice has been done correctly.
There's no need for snap caps as the others have stated. The last several cases of negligent discharges that have come to my attention resulted in part from the use of snap caps.
I train often with sub machine guns, the trigger technique we use (modulation) is quite different. The press starts the same but the trigger is released quickly especially when firing singles with the weapon set on full auto.
It takes me a great deal of dry practice after a four-day class to regain trigger control for pistol and rifle.
Please reread this thread and pay close attention to Dean. He is a world class instructor.
Listen to those who know my friend.

Gabe Suarez -- 05-15-2000 20:47
Tackdriver,
You wrote:
1). "The Glock trigger is not the greatest to be sure and I would avoid installing a 3# connector. It can still be mastered."
Sure, and you can also run a marathon with a 40 pound pack. Why bother? A three pound connector makes precision much easier, and the "dreaded" not so good Glock Trigger comparable with a standard 1911. Not putting in a 3# connector is cheating yourself. Its comparable to making a 1911 trigger heavier instead of lighter & crisper. Why?
2). "There's no need for snap caps as the others have stated. The last several cases of negligent discharges that have come to my attention resulted in part from the use of snap caps."
I disagree. Snap caps are an essential training aid both for teaching actual live fire trigger control at the intermediate level, as well as for training gunhandling manipulations at any level. If someone touched one off, it was due to their own foolishness and not because of the presence of snap caps.
I use snap caps at every live fire session to revisit trigger control drills for the first magazine or so. I also use them at least 30 minutes daily in dry practice of malfunction clearing and reloading drills

tackdrivr -- 05-16-2000 02:02
Well,
Here's were we disagree all right.
You wrote:
>Sure, and you can also run a marathon with a 40 pound pack. Why bother? A three pound connector makes precision much easier, and the "dreaded" not so good Glock Trigger comparable with a standard 1911. Not putting in a 3# connector is cheating yourself. Its comparable to making a 1911 trigger heavier instead of lighter & crisper. Why?
Why indeed, In general, I don't have a problem with a lightened trigger for the intermediate to advanced operator.
In this case I was addressing a specific problem from a specific shooter.
Its obvious that the shooter has a trigger mash, probably induced from firing magnum ammo.
My best guess is that the shooter is firing the revolver from single action which puts the trigger break in the 3-6 # range.
What is needed here is a full understanding of the trigger press, not an aftermarket 3 pound connector from Joe Blows sheet metal shop.
How many police departments do you know of that would allow a patrol officer to carry a weapon with a three pound break?
I understand that you've seen the elephant and I'm sure that you exhibit grace under fire.
The novice lacks both skill and coolness and what may work for you, or even me
may lead to disaster for the new shooter.
>I disagree. Snap caps are an essential training aid both for teaching actual live fire trigger control at the intermediate level, as well as for training gunhandling manipulations at any level.
Again we are not talking about the intermediate level. As for RANGE training I always use live ammo and fired brass when running malfunction drills.
>I use snap caps at every live fire session to revisit trigger control drills for the first magazine or so. I also use them at least 30 minutes daily in dry practice of malfunction clearing and reloading drills
OK, I'll buy the ball and dummy drill for some applications, the target will tell the tale however. Again malfunction and reloading RANGE drills should be done with live ammo.

Gabe Suarez -- 05-16-2000 10:39
Tack,
I didn't mean to sound, well.."mean". I think an easy to operate trigger is much more conducive to good trigger control than a heavy one. There's plenty of agencies that would allow a Glock 34, or 35, as well as 1911. I find it much easier to train a surprise break with a lighter, crisper trigger (within reason of course).
As far as the other stuff, on the range, only live ammo is quite correct, but at home in Dry Practice, the only way to really get the feel for manipulations is to use some sort of dummy rounds. The plastic orange ones are clearly different from the real ones.

Neo Alred -- 05-31-2000 15:27
Well, I went back to the range this morning after a pretty long break. I've been busy with my consulting work. That is great for business, but is apparently bad for my shooting. I was trying to practice everything listed here. Didn't have any misfeeds, so no recovery actions. While doing my dry fires before loading up, I seemed to be squeezing well. No noticeable barrel movement. After firing a few magazines, I noticed that in mid-mag, I squeezed, but I didn't fire. I wondered, "missfeed?" but no. I hadn't actually pulled past the break. On this horrible, horrendous mistake, I noticed that the gun jumped physically in my hand. Obviously, I was anticipating a recoil, or maybe I was just trying to throw the bullet like actors do on TV. At any rate, it was awful. I immediately dropped the magazine and cleared the chamber. I went back to dry firing. Now, I was doing the same stupid action during my dry runs. Just what the hell happened to me during the first 30 rounds that I fired? I put everything down on the lane standard and did some loosening exercises to get the tension out of my hands and arms. Then, I tried to dry runs again. Still a little dip/twist to the left. Concentrated REALLY hard. No movement. Continued for another 40-50 trigger pulls. Reloaded the gun and started over. Better, but still not drilling the center of my target. Still going a little low and left. I know that the answer is "Go back to basics." I will have to do that on the next range run. Today was discouraging. I'd done so well on my last trip. I was so encouraged by my improvement, that today really surprised me. It has been about a month since I went to the range, though. Need more time.

Goodgun -- 06-01-2000 13:19
Neo:
To keep the trigger skills honed in, you need to dry practice 10-15 minutes a day.
To improve significantly, try 30-45 minutes a day.
Only go to the range once or twice a month to verify that your trigger presses are OK.
Easier said than done!

Tactical Response -- 06-19-2000 20:17
Neo,
There is no excuse to not practice EVERY day. As Goodgun said you should dry fire practice. Even if it is 5 or 6 "snaps".

hkP7 -- 08-01-2000 02:34
I hear a lot about headshots, AFTER a double tap in the high chest fails...
I'm going for a coupla inches under his belt buckle. No pelvic girdle, no movement, no mobility. Vest or not, he's going down with a smashed pelvis.
Even if he's not feeling the pain (coke/speed/etc), he's going to be on the ground in a hurry.
I'm much more confident about a pelvis shot than a head shot after I just soiled myself cuz he's still tickin after a double chest shot...
What do the experts think?

tackdrivr -- 08-01-2000 09:55
This technique was developed by the LAPD to stop an attack with a blunt instrument.
If your adversary is armed with a firearm he may still be able to fire even if he's down.
More importantly, if the initial pair to the COM failed to do the job, placing additional rounds to a less vital area of the body may also fail.
Why take the chance? If the pair, triple, to the COM fails, immediately transition to the cranial ocular cavity, mustache to eyebrows, outside edges of the eyes.
Be ready for a follow up shot.

hkP7 -- 08-01-2000 11:20
I think people are possibly overestimating their capability to pull of head shots.
Yeah, I'd bet my nuts that Gabe Suarez and other pros around would be able to do it, if not consistently, but I think a guy that just got the rug pulled out from under him (a round to the pelvis), even if armed, is going to need to reorient and recover from a fall to an unorthodox shooting position, and I will have a very large target right thee on the ground to shoot at if he's still aggressive.
I've done 2+1's and I feel good about them, but I've done 2+1's to the pelvis from a little longer range and feel MUCH better about them.
Is there a protocol for when and how far to use this vs. the head? Seems the head shot is unrealistic for all but the most close ranges (for most people).

Tactical Response -- 08-01-2000 17:54
Pelvic shots don't cause people to crumble as advertised. Handgun bullets typically just punch holes in the bone. A collapse will happen if you hit the ball-and-socket of the hips and THAT is a smaller target than the head. Pelvic shots are WAY OVER RATED.

ajm -- 08-01-2000 21:21
In my life I have been fortunate enough to know several people who can shoot and at least two who can (or could) SHOOT. The first was Bill Jordan and the second is Jerry Miculeck (hell I never could spell his last name without looking) from both of them I got a couple of things, the first is dry fire. Mr. Jordan said that with a 22 and 500 rounds of ammo almost anyone with normal muscle control could make a master shooter --- if he or she would dry fire 1000 times for each live round fired. What I got from Jerry was for revolver shooting but applies to Glocks as well, if you are watching the sight correctly you will see the front sight clearly throughout the recoil cycle and will be able to trace the movement which will be up and to the left normally if you are right handed. To move towards those incredible .06 splits that were mentioned earlier, try to see the front sight lift from the target and then retrace the track of the front sight to return it to the target exactly where it was prior to shot break one. When the sight has reversed itself and settled exactly where it was, then you are set to release shot two to follow it. This is an excellent thread

Sneevil -- 11-04-2000 23:05
Should have read this thread before I went to the range today, with my tried and trust HiPower and NEW Beretta 92FS.
Shot consistently low-left with the new Beretta and dead on with the HP. I could not figure out why! I also had a couple of unexpected 'bangs' with the HP (transitioning from one gun to the other, trying to solve the low left problem).

m65swede -- 11-17-2000 05:43
I am a long time shooter, but a first time Glock owner - bought a new G21 2 weeks ago. Anyway, I was nosing around in GlockTalk and stumbled across this thread; what a stroke of good luck!!
I read the techniques and tips provided by DeanG, Mike H, and Chief.....then I walked outside and set up a target at 25 feet. Just had to see if this trigger control stuff could help me learn to shoot Glocks.
I dry fired a couple of times, then proceeded to plunk 5 rounds into a quarter-sized group! At that point I lost my composure at having done so well (for me) and sprayed the next 3 shots a couple of inches outside the group. I then calmed down and put the last 2 rounds from the mag right into the main hole.
I am 50+ years old and have lousy eyesight to boot. Nevertheless, the techniques you guys presented in this thread have advanced my competence with my G21 tremendously. I now KNOW that if I use self-discipline and practice the techniques you all have taught me, that anything I shoot at is dead meat (at least at 25 feet)!!!!
Kudos and props to you fellas, and may you all have good shooting.

Neo Alred -- 11-17-2000 11:31
m56swede,
Awesome! Your post illustrates exactly why this thread needs to remain open and on-focus. Since I asked the original question over 7 months ago, I no longer consider myself a new shooter. However, I still try to re-read the information in this thread at least once a month, just to make sure I haven't forgotten anything.
I'm so glad that you were able to learn the same things that I was able to learn during the last 7 months. Keep practicing! These techniques, though simple, are easy to forget without practice. Practice dry as frequently as you can and give it 50-100 snaps. By snap 70, you will see that your point of aim doesn't waiver a bit.
Keep up that good shooting!

Oosik -- 12-15-2000 20:56
I viewed the first couple of replies when this thread first started then never bothered going back to again, that is until it was mentioned in another area of GT. I can't believe all the info in here. It's been great.
There is one question I would like to add though. It was slightly touched upon but I'd like more info.
It has to do with "Front Sight". Now I know enough about concentrating on the front site as I dry fire quite a bit already. But one thing I never have been able to accomplish is "getting the front site back" after a fired round..quickly enough. I attain the front site after a shot, but not nearly as quickly as I think I should be. Now someone had mentioned following the front site as it recoils then back down to where it should be. But I find this would be difficult to do with recoil as fast as it is, my eyes just won't follow it. Plus, the "my" bodies natural reaction to blinking I'd lose it anyway. So, to all the experts I ask, how do you reacquire the front site after the first shot? How do you acquire multiple sights with multiple shots? I think I spend too much time on getting the site back on target. IOW, without actually looking at the target(target blurred) I spend probably to much time getting back to COM. How do I overcome this?
Great thread, BTW!
On a side note to NEO,
I'm somewhat taken back by your reaction to the "Point shooting" reply someone had made here. I understand that you don't agree with this type of technique and may feel that it doesn't belong on this thread, but I feel you came off a little too harsh from the start. I'm not here to tell anyone how they should be or act in this world, but it was discomforting to see someone whom I thought presented themselves as very mature and respectable in the way they posted, all of a sudden blurt out harsh rhetoric. You may have started this thread, but this thread "belongs to everyone" on the board. I just feel you should have come off a little more level headed at something like that - based on all your other posts.

Tactical Response -- 12-17-2000 17:44
Drew,
I believe you are watching your bullet holes on the target. If you are shooting correctly you won't see your group until you fire the last shot in the string.
I see people do this all the time (yep even some GTers). One way to break out of it is to cut a big hole in the center of your target and just fire through it. This moves your concentration from the bullet strikes to the gun.
Keep watching the place where your sight WAS and it will snap back down FAST if you are following through correctly.

Highspeed -- 12-17-2000 18:03
I just saw this thread for the first time a couple of days ago when it was brought back to life, and I finally got to go out today and put what I learned by reading it to use.
I don't even know what to say! Even though I haven't shot a Glock for quite some time, my groups were quite improved over what I remember them being.
The advice about shooting at bullet holes and of course, forcing myself to hold the trigger to the rear helped immensely. I didn't even realize I was looking for bullet holes until I was made to think about it by the authors here!
A big thank you to all who contributed to this excellent thread!

Neo Alred -- 12-19-2000 01:30
Oosik and Apprentice, Mea Culpa. You are right. So is 40 Mike. If you have been around here long enough, you are familiar with Okjoe and his attempts to impress everyone with a technique called "point shooting." My argument with Okjoe that lasted for weeks in a long-dead thread spilled into my emotions about this thread. Although the board belongs to all of us, this particular thread holds special interest for me, as I started it. As you can see from reading it, many people have found it extremely useful. Nearly every thread that Okjoe touches gets turned into a flame-out and gets locked by the moderators. I don't want to see that happen to this thread, and I respect the fact that Okjoe has refrained from adding any comment after my harshly-worded posts. Since the search fuctions rarely work anymore, if this thread gets locked, there will be little chance that anyone else will be able to read it, thereby gaining the valuable information contained herein.
I apologize for diverting from my customary and educated demeanor of respect and tolerance. I can see how others might have found my posts to be a little strong. If you find the previous Okjoe threads, I think you might understand the reaction a little more. That still doesn't make it right, and I can only apologize.
Let's let it go and get back to the really useful assistance. I believe that som

edit log


 

 
nEJIbMEHb
posted 23-12-2007 06:49    
Взято вот отсюда: http://glockfaq.com/trigger.htm

На мой взгляд очень и очень полезная инфа в крайне утоптаной форме. Конечно, наличие Мастера Спорта за спиной оно не заменит, но всё же некоторые вещи может объяснить.

Я понимаю что английский здесь не все понимают, так что прошу помощи у народа в переводе. Кому не лень - помогайте. Формат такой. Делаете пост в ответе. В него копируете абзац (или несколько) которые собираетесь перевести. Отправляете. Когда перевод закончен - добавьте русский текст в начало поста. Не убивайте оригинальный текст, чтобы можно было в конце составить полный русский пост.

Если тема будет интересна общественности, можно будет попросить админов стикнуть её в этом разделе.

nEJIbMEHb
posted 23-12-2007 07:46    
Приступим.

Это обсуждение с форума Глок-Ток (GlockTalk.com). Всё началось с простого вопроса, заданного Neo Alred, но вылилось в 20ти страничную книгу рассматривающую все вопросы относящиеся к теме контроля спуска у Глока.
Вот некоторые из деталей: (тут я оставлю оригинальные термины. Я уверен что для каждого из них есть эквивалент в русском языке. Не буду изобретать)trigger reset, flinching, anticipation & surprise, Холостая стрельба, follow through, Поиск Дырок, milking the grip и многое другое. Я убедительно рекомендую прочитать всё, вы не пожалеете.
Однако, если вы ищете быстрое решение для какой-то конкретной проблемы - посмотрите в оглавление (там ещё и оглавлени сделано) для того чтобы перейти к конкретной проблеме. Курсивом выделены места, где ссылаются на конкретные техники и решения.
Благодарности авторам.

This is a discussion thread that occurred on GlockTalk.com. It started as a simple question posed by Neo Alred but turned into a 20-page book covering every single aspect of Glock trigger control. Some of the details discussed are: trigger reset, flinching, anticipation & surprise, dry-firing technique, follow through, looking for holes, milking the grip and many more. I strongly suggest that you read the entire thing, you won't be sorry. However, if you need a quick fix, use the links in the table of contents (look left) to get help for a specific problem. The red words in the text are points where specific techniques and solutions are described.
Many thanks to the authors of this great discussion: Neo Alred, volcanopaul, Tactical Response, DeanG, Mike Havas, harrydog, toro, robear, gunmart, tackdrivr, ArmoredTrk in AZ, Gabe Suarez, DISPENSER 4 HIRE, Goodgun, hkP7, ajm, Sneevil, m65swede, Oosik, Highspeed, Dwalk, Muad'Dib, dakodakid, Rainmaker19, CarlosDJackal, Mike40, Partywaggin, jlyons and tag.

nEJIbMEHb
posted 23-12-2007 08:01    
Теперь перейдём к вопросу с которого всё и началось.

Всем привет,

Я тренеровался на стрельбище и заметил тенденцию в моей стрельбе от которой я хотел бы избавиться. Мой первый выстрел обычно точный. Следующий выстрел ложится ниже и левее. Я показал инструктору мои мишени и он считает что я "milking the grip" в момент нажатия на спуск. (milking - буквально "доить". В смысле того что движение указательным пальцем не изолированы. В результате движение указательным пальцем приводит к непроизвольному движению всей кисти)
Это движение приводит к заваливанию ствола и некоторому смещению влево. Естественно что точка попадани при этом смещается. На тернеровке с силуэтом я практически все выстрелы кладу в 9. Ещё ни разу не вышел из 8, независимо от того как быстро я растреливаю обойму. Просто хотелось бы убрать эту проблему из того что я делаю чтобы попадать в круг 10 чаще.

Советы?

---

Now, on to the question that started it all!
Hello everyone,
As I've been working out at the range, I have noticed a consistency to my shot placement that I'd like to work out of my routine. My first shot is usually dead on the money. My subsequent shots usually fall a little low and left. I showed the rangemaster my targets and he suggested that I am "milking" the grip while squeezing the trigger. This action forces the barrel to dip and twist slightly to the left. Of course, this causes the shot to err a little. When shooting police training silhouettes, my shots are almost never outside the 9 ring and I've yet to place one outside the 8 ring, no matter how sloppy or fast I'm shooting through the clip. I'd just like to be able to get this practice out of my routine so that I hit the 10 ring more regularly.
Any advice?
And thanks in advance for your suggestions!

nEJIbMEHb
posted 23-12-2007 08:15    
volcanopaul -- 04-30-2000 18:34
Регуляная холостая стрельба. В больших количествах. Концентрируйся на том чтобы держать мушку на месте в момент срыва спуска. "Follow through" (буквально "продолжай". В данном случае продолжай целиться) продолжая удерживать прицел на мишени несколько секунд после срыва спуска. Одно это помогло мне значительно улучшить мою стрельбу.

Пол.

Tactical Response -- 04-30-2000 21:35
Похоже что ты "Ищешь Дырки". Если ты делаешь один выстрел - то получаешь две картинки в прицеле, два выстрела - три картинки и так далее. "Продолжение" (Follow through) - ключ к этой проблеме. Отстреляй очередь не смотря на группу попаданий пока не закончишь.
Так же возможно что ты слишком сильно сжимаешь рукоятку. Когда отстреляешь группу, посмотри на руку. Если на ней отпечаталась рукоятка - скорее всего ты действительно "доишь", как тебе сказали.

---

volcanopaul -- 04-30-2000 18:34
Regular dry-firing practice. Lots of it. Really concentrate on holding the sights steady as the trigger breaks. "Follow through" by holding the sights on target for several seconds after the trigger breaks. This in and of itself has helped my shooting tremendously.
Paul
Tactical Response -- 04-30-2000 21:35
It sounds as if you might be looking for your bullet holes. If you are going to fire one shot you should get two sight pictures, three shots get four sight pictures and so forth. Follow through is the key. Fire a string without looking at your group until finished.
You might be squeezing the gun too hard. When you get finished shooting a string look at your hand. Can you see an impression of the grip? If so you might be "milking" as was suggested.

nEJIbMEHb
posted 23-12-2007 08:50    
Neo Alred -- 05-01-2000 01:13
Пол, Спасибо за советы. Я попробую холостую стрельбу и концентрацию на удержании прицела на мишени после нажатия на спуск. Это как в гольфе. Звучит как вы оба мне говорите "держать голову вниз" или "не смотри на мяч", а концентрируйся на выстреле и том что после него. Совет, похоже, хороший.
Благодарю!

volcanopaul -- 05-01-2000 11:10
Хорошая аналогия. Попробую объяснить. Полное усилие давления с обоих рук - 100%. Поддерживающая рука (слабая. Левая) даёт около 60% и сильная рука около 40% из этого. Так что да. Можно сказать что слабая рука держит пистолет несколько сильнее чем сильная рука.

Пол.

Neo Alred -- 05-01-2000 14:01
Спасибо Пол,
Я попробую выкроить время чтобы попасть на стрельбище на этой неделе чтобы попробовать выши рекомендации. А пока я достану свой Глок и поработаю над расслабленым удержанием сильной рукой и на холостой стрельбе с удержанием мушки с концентрацией на правильном нажатии.

Большое спасибо за помощь.

DeanG -- 05-01-2000 17:33
Neo, тут дали отличные советы. Но я готов поспорить что ты неправильно "resetting" спуск (буквально - "возвращаешь". В смысле в положение про котором повторное нажатие вызовет срыв спуска), а может даже убираешь палец со спуска между выстрелами, так что повторный выстрел "заваливается". Попробуй при первом выстреле сосредоточить внимание на мушке в процессе цикла отдачи и перезарядки, при этом УДЕРЖИВАЙ СПУСК ПОЛНОСТЬЮ НАЖАТЫМ, на протяжении всего процесса. Когда пройдёт отдача и ты полностью выровняешь прицел на мишени, начинай медленно отпускать спусковой крючёк ТОЛЬКО до того момента пока не почувствуешь шелчёк (возврат). После этого начинай давить, удерживая мушку на мишени. Твои два выстрела, если они оба были "неожиданными", должны лечь практически в одну дырку. Второй выстрел заслуживает того же внимания и уважения чтобы быть той же "неожиданностью" как и твой первый выстрел.
(surprise - метод борьбы с flinch. Когда ожидание отдачи приводит к преждевременной компенсации прямо перед срывом спуска).

---

Neo Alred -- 05-01-2000 01:13
And VolcanoPaul,
Thanks for your suggestion. I will try the dry-fire drills and concentrate on keeping the sights on target after applying the trigger. And again with the golf analogy...it sounds like both of you are telling me to "keep my head down" or "don't watch the ball" but concentrate on making the shot and on following through. The advice seems to make sense.
Gracias!
volcanopaul -- 05-01-2000 11:10
That's a good analogy. Lemme see if I can explain this...The total "squeeze" from both of my hands is 100%. My support hand (left hand) is about 60% of that and my right hand is about 40% of that. So yes, my support hand is holding on to the gun slightly more firmly than my right hand.
Paul

Neo Alred -- 05-01-2000 14:01
Thanks Paul,
I'm going to find some time this week to get back to the range to try the suggestions that you and the Chief have given. In the meantime, I'll pull out the Glock and see if I can't get used to the feel of the relaxed grip and do some dry-firings to concentrate on the proper squeeze.
Thanks so much for the help.

DeanG -- 05-01-2000 17:33
Neo,
There have been some good suggestions offered here. I would be willing to bet you are not properly resetting the trigger, and maybe even taking your finger off the trigger between shots, thus "mashing" the second shot. Try firing your first shot, stay focused on the front sight during the follow through or recoil cycle, MAKE SURE YOU HOLD THE TRIGGER COMPLETTLY TO THE REAR while this process this happening. After the pistol settles back down so that you have a perfect sight picture and sight alignment, slowly start to release the trigger ONLY enough until it clicks/resets. Then slowly start to press the trigger to the rear again keeping your perfect sight alignment and sight picture. Your two shots, if both are true surprises, should almost be on top of each other. The second shot deserves the same respect and time to "surprise" you as the first, to guarantee your hits.
DeanG

nEJIbMEHb
posted 24-12-2007 20:03    
Кому нибудь это интересно? Продолжать имеет смысл?
Szaman
posted 26-12-2007 01:16    
quote:
Originally posted by nEJIbMEHb:
Кому нибудь это интересно? Продолжать имеет смысл?

Спасибо за перевод

ramashkaus
posted 26-12-2007 05:03    
я понимаю по англицки. прочитал. сэнкс
neil
posted 27-12-2007 00:51    
пельмень:весьма интересно!
lst
posted 27-12-2007 11:36    
"Попробуй при первом выстреле сосредоточить внимание на мушке в процессе цикла отдачи и перезарядки, при этом УДЕРЖИВАЙ СПУСК ПОЛНОСТЬЮ НАЖАТЫМ, на протяжении всего процесса"
Совет типа попробуй, подпрыгнув, не повиснуть в воздухе.
pasha333
posted 27-12-2007 12:47    
quote:
Originally posted by lst:
"Попробуй при первом выстреле сосредоточить внимание на мушке в процессе цикла отдачи и перезарядки, при этом УДЕРЖИВАЙ СПУСК ПОЛНОСТЬЮ НАЖАТЫМ, на протяжении всего процесса"
Совет типа попробуй, подпрыгнув, не повиснуть в воздухе.

Чего? Насколько я понял, просто нажав на КУРОК, не отпускать его до восстановления картинки ПП.

lst
posted 27-12-2007 14:52    
КУРОК лучше вообще не нажимать. Жми на ударник.
Попробуй отпустить спуск ДО того, как закончится цикл перезарядки Глока. Если получится, значит ты можешь запросто делать выстрелов 10 в секунду.

edit log

lst
posted 27-12-2007 18:16    
quote:
Originally posted by meagre:
Совет верный - перевод неточный, не соответствующий теории прозвозводства точного выстрела.

Неизвестно, из которого пальца переводчик высосал процесс перезарядки.
Под процессом отдачи там подразумевается не работа автоматики, а подброс руки и возврат на мишень.
Как этот верный совет должен быть сформулирован в соответствии теорией произвозводства точного выстрела?
Впрочем с производством точного выстрела все очевидно.

Более интересна теория производства двух (и более) точных и быстрых выстрелов.

185951
posted 27-12-2007 23:54    
Очень интересно и нужно. У меня плохо с английским. И давайте не критиковать пока не прочли весь текст. Спасибо. Я тоже мучаюсь с этой проблемой. Тут видимо то что надо. Дайте, пожалуйста, весь текст.
lst
posted 28-12-2007 00:54    
quote:
Originally posted by 185951:
Очень интересно и нужно. У меня плохо с английским. И давайте не критиковать пока не прочли весь текст. Спасибо. Я тоже мучаюсь с этой проблемой. Тут видимо то что надо. Дайте, пожалуйста, весь текст.

Коли мучаешься проблемой - выкладывай ее сюда. Здесь есть квалифицированные доктора, которые помогут. А ты пытаешься решить проблему, слушая частные разговоры в очереди к доктору типа - вы знаете, у моего дяди было то же самое, и моча молодого поросенка очень помогла.

nEJIbMEHb
posted 28-12-2007 01:42    
поправьте, если в чём-то видите неточности. Я только начинаю стрелять. Так что во многом могу ошибаться. Самое сложное это перевод терминов на русский. Я понятия не имею как правильно называется trigger reset и как точно перевести recoil cycle.
Кстати, оригинал тоже не является чем-то абсолютным. Это всего лишь выжимка из одного топика на форуме. Не думаю что там были одни Мастера Спорта на отвечающей стороне. Так что если наш форум может что-то добавить или поправить на их форуме - для нас это только плюс.

2meagre: Подскажи где именно я ошибся. Или всё дело только в recoil cycle который только "цикл отдачи" и не включает в себя перезарядку? Я сейчас ещё раз перечитал. Вроде всё более-менее соответствует. Хотя не с моим опытом судить. Может какая мелкая деталь всё портит. Вобщем F1!

PS: Вот оригинал.

DeanG -- 05-01-2000 17:33
Neo,
There have been some good suggestions offered here. I would be willing to bet you are not properly resetting the trigger, and maybe even taking your finger off the trigger between shots, thus "mashing" the second shot. Try firing your first shot, stay focused on the front sight during the follow through or recoil cycle, MAKE SURE YOU HOLD THE TRIGGER COMPLETTLY TO THE REAR while this process this happening. After the pistol settles back down so that you have a perfect sight picture and sight alignment, slowly start to release the trigger ONLY enough until it clicks/resets. Then slowly start to press the trigger to the rear again keeping your perfect sight alignment and sight picture. Your two shots, if both are true surprises, should almost be on top of each other. The second shot deserves the same respect and time to "surprise" you as the first, to guarantee your hits.
DeanG

nEJIbMEHb
posted 28-12-2007 01:46    
quote:
Originally posted by 185951:
Очень интересно и нужно. У меня плохо с английским. И давайте не критиковать пока не прочли весь текст. Спасибо. Я тоже мучаюсь с этой проблемой. Тут видимо то что надо. Дайте, пожалуйста, весь текст.

Критиковать как раз нужно. Я неплохо владею английским, но гораздо слабее владею предметом обсуждения. Статья большая и мне одному её точно перевести просто не возможно.
Нет проблем если я постепенно переведу и форум поправит за мной неточности. Именно на это я и рассчитывал.

nEJIbMEHb
posted 28-12-2007 01:54    
quote:
Originally posted by lst:

Коли мучаешься проблемой - выкладывай ее сюда. Здесь есть квалифицированные доктора, которые помогут. А ты пытаешься решить проблему, слушая частные разговоры в очереди к доктору типа - вы знаете, у моего дяди было то же самое, и моча молодого поросенка очень помогла.



Если продолжать медицинскую аналогию, то для того чтобы обратиться за лекарством нужно сначала поставить диагноз. Желательно правильно. А то ведь и стрельбу на 7 часов можно назвать "кривой мушкой" или "неисправным пистолетом".

Этот тред, вобщем, достаточно сжато даёт информацию, которую я раньше не встречал. Например распределения услилия слабой и сильной руки я вижу первый раз. Trigger reset - тоже. Поиск дырок - опять первый раз.
Если где-то есть литература в которой это всё расписано, дайте название. Это сэкономит мне кучу времени.

lst
posted 28-12-2007 19:21    
quote:
Originally posted by nEJIbMEHb:

Если продолжать медицинскую аналогию, то для того чтобы обратиться за лекарством нужно сначала поставить диагноз.


А чтоб поставить диагноз, надо осмотреть больного. Или хотябы выслушать, на что жалуется. Обсуждать же подслушанную беседу двух больных нет смысла

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